More sanity on Warren:
It’s unfortunate that some gay activists (and their allies on the left) have let their disagreement with the prominent pastor on this one issue color their reaction to the president-elect’s choice. To be sure, had Warren expressed his support of Proposition 8 in the hateful tones of some of the proposition’s proponents, these activists would have a point.
But, in coming out against gay marriage, Warren didn’t attack gay people. He merely expressed his belief that gender difference was a defining aspect of the institution.
Given the civil nature with which Warren has expressed this view, activists’ opposition to the president-elect’s choice marks them the more intolerant party in this controversy. It shows how all too many of them readily label any opposition to gay marriage as bigoted, hateful, or otherwise anti-gay. Moreover, their claim that the inclusion of Warren means the exclusion of gay people is belied by the inclusion of the gay band in the inaugural parade.
Hateful reactions from gay activists only hurt their movement, not help it. It’s good that some people are taking the common sense approach. After all, acceptance is not a one way street, and the liberal gays would do well to learn this.
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Well said, Warren was honest in his beliefs, He doesn’t support some gay lifestyle choices, and he said why. These beliefs he doesn’t agree with are a contradiction to his belief system. Weather you disagree with him or not, this does not make one hateful. Old fashioned? maybe, but hateful? Not even close. Voracious actions from the left only make the left appear more crazed. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the frustration of trying to mainstream beliefs when their may be vocal opposition to those beliefs, but anger does not help, it provides a point for the opposition to point to as raeason to not allow those new views. Unfortunately for for gay marriage proponents, from what I can see “established” religions are a group with the least wiggle room for allowing new views. To keep things in perspective, there were times where some established religious groups would be more vocally against gay rights never mind gay marriage than they are today.
Once again…
In an interview in Beliefnet, Rick Warren stated that he wouldn’t recognize gay marriage any more than he’d recognize a marriage between an adult and child (pedophilia) or between a brother and sister (incest) or between one man and multiple women (polygamy). When interviewer Steven Waldman asked him if he was equating gay marriage to these things, he said “Yes”.
In addition, Warren’s church doesn’t allow open homosexuals (although he’s very recently taken this statement off his website).
Warren’s church supports the idea that gays can become straight through therapy.
Warren has supported and praised conservative Anglican Bishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, who has called for prison sentences for anyone in a gay relationship or a member of a gay organization.
Once again, it’s not just the opposition to Proposition 8 that has the gay community upset. It’s a whole series of beliefs that Rick Warren holds.
” It’s a whole series of beliefs that Rick Warren holds”
Once again, Warren was honest in his beliefs, He doesn’t support some gay lifestyle choices, and he said why. These beliefs he doesn’t agree with are a contradiction to his belief system. Weather you disagree with him or not, this does not make one hateful.
In addition, Warren’s church doesn’t allow open homosexuals
Doesn’t allow them to do what, Tom? The fact is that what his church doesn’t allow is for people to present themselves as members of the church if they don’t agree with the beliefs of the church. Such people are welcome to attend but not join unless they come to change their own beliefs (the website stated that the same is true of heterosexuals who are involved in premarital or extramarital sexual unions, not just homosexuals.) The act of joining a church is a public declaration that you espouse its teachings, and your life becomes a testament to those beliefs. If you aren’t going to at least try to practice what is being taught there, then the act of joining is a massive act of hypocrisy (or an attempt to change the church from within in the misguided belief that churches are democratic institutions which vote on their core beliefs.)
Why would anyone have a problem with ta church restricting membership to those who actually agree with its teachings? If you don’t believe what the church teaches, then why would you want to join, and even if there is a desire to do so, why is it hard to understand that a faith community has every right to define what it is they believe in and require others to publicly defend those beliefs instead of trying to undermine or transform them?
I was just going to write that C Stanley, In fact the website said Gay people can attend, and they hope they do!
Right, Jay_C, and even more to the point, the same applies to anyone who isn’t living a lifestyle in keeping with the church’s teachings. IOW, this prohibition against membership doesn’t apply strictly to homosexuals (as though the church leaders want to keep out people they feel are ‘icky’ or unworthy) but rather to anyone who fundamentally disagrees with the moral teachings. That’s a big difference. They seem to want people to attend and hear out what they are saying, and then decide whether or not they believe these things enough to join as a member.
This is a basic principle of free association (upheld time and again by the Supreme Court.) Even if you remove the religious aspect, no organization is forced to accept members who don’t conform to key values that the group is organized around. Would an environmentalist group be wrong to refuse membership to a CEO who’d been found guilty of dumping toxic waste in a river? Or a prochoice advocacy organization refusing to allow a prolife person from publicly fighting for abortion restrictions while claiming to be part of that organization? It doesn’t matter whether or not you agree with the views of the various organizations or churches, the principle is the same.
And what gay activists are doing by proclaiming their refusal to accept Warren’s church having the right to exclude gay membership is saying that they not only disagree with his views on homosexuality, but they disagree with his right to exercise those views. Obviously, this is how many in the progay community feel- but they need to take note that they alienate many religious people who might otherwise sympathize with their cause when they show this tendency to overreach. If they simply resented Warren’s political activism against gay marriage, I’d agree to respectfully disagree but when they go much further than that it’s troubling.
“If they simply resented Warren’s political activism against gay marriage, I?d agree to respectfully disagree but when they go much further than that it?s troubling.”
Same here…
“Warren has supported and praised conservative Anglican Bishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, who has called for prison sentences for anyone in a gay relationship or a member of a gay organization.”
So, you know Warren “supports and praises Akinola” I thought Warren said (in reaction to an unrealted issue…Muslim Cartoon Riots) that what Akinola said “was no more characteristic than Nelson Mandela’s apartheid-era statement that ’sooner or later this violence is going to spread to whites.’
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1187221,00.html
Regardless of your thoughts on this unrelated issue, it is just that, an unrelated stance on an unrelated issue. To me, this seems like an attempt to defame ones charater by guilt by association.
I should make it clear that I personally do not support Warren and his views, but what angers me is peoples (mainly the lefts) attempt to undermine and squash other points of view they don’t agree with by defaming and flimsy associations of guilt in the way that you are doing Tom.
Does anyone believe that opposition to interracial marriage is/was not bigoted, hateful, and otherwise anti-black?
Jay_C;
You’ll be happy to know that Warren has gotten equally angry comments from the Christian Right.
I also do not agree with any of Warren’s takes on gays. Far from it. But CStanely is right. Private organizations can accept only the people they want.
Gre wgills: Although this isn’t a scientifically based opinion, I’d venture you would find many people who still think this way. It’s not so much bigotry but underlying prejudices. I know several people in my own family who would probably think this way.
c3: You know what they say. If you’re getting anger from both sides of the aisle, you’re probably the one who’s right.
@Grewgills
Grewgills,
If this was the 60s and we were in the Deep South, and I met a man who treated blacks respectfully and with dignity, but told me plainly he simply didn’t agree with interracial marriage, I would politely disagree with him.
People have opinions for all sorts of reasons. Some of them might be stupid and the person might hold them just because he’s being pretentious or contrarian or he’s just wrong. But some of them might actually be smart, and you may just not understand them.
That’s why you don’t have prejudice about people, because you might be wrong. Not because you want to be right.