wilky :Kinda interesting that someone claiming that there is a certain amount of freedom of expression in China would follow up with this sentence.
“Finally, I would caution you against using internet sources that you just googled up. The pictures you posted are clearly those of ordinary hospital patients, or do you really think the Chinese government puts their “torture victims” in comfortable hospital rooms?”
Certain amount indeed. Just don’t get on to the wrong subject.

Sorry, but you’re not making any sense. You do realize that I’m saying those are NOT pictures of torture victims (hence the quotes)? Or did you just skip over the sentence and read what you wanted to read?

With all due respect, the only thing that’s clear is that logic is absent from that statement. When someone says that the ends don’t justify the means, it does not mean that those means are unimportant- the person is simply asserting that other means should be used to achieve those ends.

That might make sense, if there were alternate paths that is certain, or just as likely, to lead to said end.

However, there isn’t. Russia is a prime example. Their headlong rush into “democracy” caused an economic disaster that reduced a super power into a beggar country. Ironically, it was only with Putin’s iron-fisted rule that Russia has returned to prosperity and stability.

Like I said, C Stanley, your views are founded on very problematic assumptions. You assume that if a country becomes democratic, it will automatically cure poverty and raise standards of living. That is simply NOT true.

When it comes to bettering the lives of the Chinese people in general, what the Chinese government is doing is working. What you are suggesting is that we should throw all that away and instead just take your magic pill of democracy, without any evidence that it would lead to further prosperity, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

“Speaking fast with his voice rising, Chan said, ‘If I need to buy a TV, I’ll definitely buy a Japanese TV. A Chinese TV might explode.’”

With all due respect, the only thing that’s clear is that logic is absent from that statement. When someone says that the ends don’t justify the means, it does not mean that those means are unimportant- the person is simply asserting that other means should be used to achieve those ends.

“Finally, I would caution you against using internet sources that you just googled up. The pictures you posted are clearly those of ordinary hospital patients, or do you really think the Chinese government puts their “torture victims” in comfortable hospital rooms?”

Certain amount indeed. Just don’t get on to the wrong subject.

So if you think that improving situations of the Chinese people are “ends”, and the authoritarian nature of the Chinese government are the “means”, then you clearly think that it is better for the Chinese to remain poor and work in dangerous sweatshops, as long as they can vote in elections. Forgive me if most Chinese would disagree with your assessment.

Complaints about government policy are NOT complaints about lack of freedom of expression! Otherwise, you would not hear of any complaints about government policy in the West, because ostensibly, you already have freedom of expression.

No, complaints about government policy demonstrate that, contrary to what you may think, there is a certain amount of freedom of expression in China. They do not happen only in private conversations either. There are TV shows in China that are dedicated towards debating public policy, and I’ve regularly followed one such show when I was in China recently.

Finally, I would caution you against using internet sources that you just googled up. The pictures you posted are clearly those of ordinary hospital patients, or do you really think the Chinese government puts their “torture victims” in comfortable hospital rooms? The site you linked also looks suspiciously like a mouthpiece of the FLG, an anti-CCP organization that is documented to fabricate stories in order to depict the Chinese government in a negative light.

You said there that the Chinese don’t complain about their inability to vote or express opinions. Sure, fine, they don’t complain about a lack of the abstract rights of freedom of expression or self determination. But then you go on to list a litany of complaints that they do have about the effects of government policy. Those are complaints about lack of freedom of expression and freedom of self determination, but they’re coming out in pragmatic and not abstract ways. They’re complaining about the effects of not having those rights- and although the complaints might seem tolerable or worth the tradeoff since they see the overall positive growth and improvement, it may not always be so.