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	<title>Comments on: The Devil&#8217;s Advocate Checks In: Denying Marriage Services</title>
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	<description>Because Common Sense Transcends Distance</description>
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		<title>By: The Devil?s Advocate Checks In: Denying Marriage Services &#8211; Poli Gazette &#124; Articles 4 Dating</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104368</link>
		<dc:creator>The Devil?s Advocate Checks In: Denying Marriage Services &#8211; Poli Gazette &#124; Articles 4 Dating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read the original post of this recipe Go Here!      Comments (0) &nbsp; &nbsp;Posted in Dating &nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104279</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104279</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t have to be racist to discriminate based on race. 

I understand that he cannot be forced to perform a marriage, just as a doctor can opt-out of any particular procedure if he or she is uncomfortable with it, or a lawyer can refuse service.  They just can&#039;t make that decision based on race.

The law forbids discrimination based on race.  It is silent on discrimination based on t-shirt color.

According to wikipedia (I&#039;m not an expert on this, which is why I was asking a question, so forgive the mediocre source): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Discrimination_Act_1975

&quot;It is against the law to discriminate in areas such as:
...
Provision of goods and services (section 13) - eg when buying something, applying for credit, using banks, seeking assistance from government departments, lawyers, doctors and hospitals, or attending restaurants, pubs, entertainment venues;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t have to be racist to discriminate based on race. </p>
<p>I understand that he cannot be forced to perform a marriage, just as a doctor can opt-out of any particular procedure if he or she is uncomfortable with it, or a lawyer can refuse service.  They just can&#8217;t make that decision based on race.</p>
<p>The law forbids discrimination based on race.  It is silent on discrimination based on t-shirt color.</p>
<p>According to wikipedia (I&#8217;m not an expert on this, which is why I was asking a question, so forgive the mediocre source): <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Discrimination_Act_1975" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Discrimination_Act_1975</a></p>
<p>&#8220;It is against the law to discriminate in areas such as:<br />
&#8230;<br />
Provision of goods and services (section 13) &#8211; eg when buying something, applying for credit, using banks, seeking assistance from government departments, lawyers, doctors and hospitals, or attending restaurants, pubs, entertainment venues;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Interested</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104262</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 05:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104262</guid>
		<description>The guy is obviously not a racist.  He&#039;s a world class A-hole and should be voted out of office, but he has a clear track record of performing marriages to blacks as well as whites within his own private home.  

Not to mention that nowhere in his job description does it say he must perform marriages or must issue marriage licenses to all eligible individuals.

He could - at his own discretion - decide not to perform marriages to individuals who wear red shirts.  (which isn&#039;t nearly as fancy and flashy to the news as a possible racist allegation) - and he&#039;d be within his legal limits.

As such a lawsuit would go absolutely nowhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The guy is obviously not a racist.  He&#8217;s a world class A-hole and should be voted out of office, but he has a clear track record of performing marriages to blacks as well as whites within his own private home.  </p>
<p>Not to mention that nowhere in his job description does it say he must perform marriages or must issue marriage licenses to all eligible individuals.</p>
<p>He could &#8211; at his own discretion &#8211; decide not to perform marriages to individuals who wear red shirts.  (which isn&#8217;t nearly as fancy and flashy to the news as a possible racist allegation) &#8211; and he&#8217;d be within his legal limits.</p>
<p>As such a lawsuit would go absolutely nowhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104215</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104215</guid>
		<description>Discrimination is treating someone different because of his or her race.  If either individual in a partnership of a mix-raced relationship were a different race, the JP would perform the marriage.  By definition, he is discriminating against each of them because of his and her race.

But, if you insist, I&#039;ll come up with a different example.  Can a doctor by sued for refusing to perform a live-donor organ transplant between two family members of different races.  Or can a lawyer be sued for refusing his or her services to two people that wish to engage in some contract because the two people are of different races.  Of course, the parties in question are free to find a different doctor or a different lawyer.  But, that doesn&#039;t answer the question: do they have legitimate grounds to sue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Discrimination is treating someone different because of his or her race.  If either individual in a partnership of a mix-raced relationship were a different race, the JP would perform the marriage.  By definition, he is discriminating against each of them because of his and her race.</p>
<p>But, if you insist, I&#8217;ll come up with a different example.  Can a doctor by sued for refusing to perform a live-donor organ transplant between two family members of different races.  Or can a lawyer be sued for refusing his or her services to two people that wish to engage in some contract because the two people are of different races.  Of course, the parties in question are free to find a different doctor or a different lawyer.  But, that doesn&#8217;t answer the question: do they have legitimate grounds to sue?</p>
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		<title>By: Interested</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104192</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104192</guid>
		<description>yes I was responding to you

this JP has performed many marriages to black couples in his own home.  Your analogy cannot possibly be close to accurate unless you think the person has one black leg and one white leg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes I was responding to you</p>
<p>this JP has performed many marriages to black couples in his own home.  Your analogy cannot possibly be close to accurate unless you think the person has one black leg and one white leg.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104063</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104063</guid>
		<description>&quot;As this JP never said no to a black couple.&quot;

Are you responding to me?  He has said no to a black man wanting to marry a white woman.  If the man had been white, he would have performed the marriage.  Or if the woman was black, he would have performed the marriage.  Even if he is not racist, his policy discriminates based on race.  My question is if a doctor can be sued for refusing service based on race, can a JP be sued for the same reason?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As this JP never said no to a black couple.&#8221;</p>
<p>Are you responding to me?  He has said no to a black man wanting to marry a white woman.  If the man had been white, he would have performed the marriage.  Or if the woman was black, he would have performed the marriage.  Even if he is not racist, his policy discriminates based on race.  My question is if a doctor can be sued for refusing service based on race, can a JP be sued for the same reason?</p>
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		<title>By: Interested</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104051</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104051</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not roughly analogous MM.  As this JP never said no to a black couple.

A more appropriate analogy would be the doctor refusing to perform an abortion on individuals who are age 20 to 25.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not roughly analogous MM.  As this JP never said no to a black couple.</p>
<p>A more appropriate analogy would be the doctor refusing to perform an abortion on individuals who are age 20 to 25.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104032</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104032</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-104023&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Tully&lt;/a&gt; 

&quot;The claim that he HAD to agree to be the officiant is roughly analogous to saying that someone seeking an abortion can DEMAND their doctor of choice even if the doctor is not willing to do the procedure.&quot;

A doctor can refuse to perform a medical procedure.  But if he or she refuses to do it because the woman is black, is that legitimate grounds for a law suit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-104023" rel="nofollow">@Tully</a> </p>
<p>&#8220;The claim that he HAD to agree to be the officiant is roughly analogous to saying that someone seeking an abortion can DEMAND their doctor of choice even if the doctor is not willing to do the procedure.&#8221;</p>
<p>A doctor can refuse to perform a medical procedure.  But if he or she refuses to do it because the woman is black, is that legitimate grounds for a law suit?</p>
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		<title>By: Tully</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104023</link>
		<dc:creator>Tully</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104023</guid>
		<description>Yep, it is flawed. Like the initial reporting. The couple had a legally-issued license in hand. NO ONE denied them a marriage license, on grounds of race or anything else. And whatever JZ may imagine, a JP in LA does NOT have the authority to issue marriage licenses. (LA RS 9:221) 

While JP&#039;s in LA have the authority to act as marriage officiants, marital law does NOT fall under the jurisdiction of JP&#039;s in LA and is NOT part of their official duties. The statutory language employed in defining the officiant authority (LA RS 9:201-204) is clearly and consistently &quot;may,&quot; not &quot;shall,&quot; as relates to said authority for ALL authorized officiants, including JP&#039;s and clergy. There is indeed a distinction between duty and authority. A JP has the &lt;i&gt;authority&lt;/i&gt; to act as an officiant, but no &lt;i&gt;duty&lt;/i&gt; to so act, just as with clergy.

I think he&#039;s an old-school old-fart &quot;genteel&quot; bigot, myself. Was raised that way and thinks he&#039;s enlightened by the standards of his upbringing. (If he&#039;s 70-ish he may be right about that, but it&#039;s a low hurdle.) But he didn&#039;t (couldn&#039;t!) prevent them from getting married, only decline to be the officiant himself. NO ONE denied the couple the right and freedom to marry. Indeed, the JP even referred them to another JP who WOULD officiate for them, thereby both facilitating the union and negating any alleged harm, while simply and clearly recusing himself from doing it himself on grounds of personal conscience. However troglodytical we may find the basis of his conscientious objection, that&#039;s exactly what it was, a conscientious objection on the JP&#039;s part, for which he recused himself from being the agent of solemnization. 

There is NO right on the part of the couple to demand that a &lt;i&gt;particular&lt;/i&gt; authorized officiant be THEIR officiant when said officiant does not want to be. (Nor IMHO do I think there should be, nor IMHO should any couple &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt; an officiant that personally objects to their union for any reason.) 

Doesn&#039;t mean the JP can&#039;t be sued, of course. Anyone can sue anyone for anything, and given the right judge and jury, even win. Pettifoggers abound, as do the perpetually disgruntled. 

And no, Lawyer Lisa, &lt;i&gt;Loving&lt;/i&gt; is not the &quot;real argument&quot; here. &quot;The state&quot; did not deny the couple the right to marry. An officiant declined to personally solemnize the union, and that&#039;s all. The claim that he HAD to agree to be the officiant is roughly analogous to saying that someone seeking an abortion can DEMAND their doctor of choice even if the doctor is not willing to do the procedure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, it is flawed. Like the initial reporting. The couple had a legally-issued license in hand. NO ONE denied them a marriage license, on grounds of race or anything else. And whatever JZ may imagine, a JP in LA does NOT have the authority to issue marriage licenses. (LA RS 9:221) </p>
<p>While JP&#8217;s in LA have the authority to act as marriage officiants, marital law does NOT fall under the jurisdiction of JP&#8217;s in LA and is NOT part of their official duties. The statutory language employed in defining the officiant authority (LA RS 9:201-204) is clearly and consistently &#8220;may,&#8221; not &#8220;shall,&#8221; as relates to said authority for ALL authorized officiants, including JP&#8217;s and clergy. There is indeed a distinction between duty and authority. A JP has the <i>authority</i> to act as an officiant, but no <i>duty</i> to so act, just as with clergy.</p>
<p>I think he&#8217;s an old-school old-fart &#8220;genteel&#8221; bigot, myself. Was raised that way and thinks he&#8217;s enlightened by the standards of his upbringing. (If he&#8217;s 70-ish he may be right about that, but it&#8217;s a low hurdle.) But he didn&#8217;t (couldn&#8217;t!) prevent them from getting married, only decline to be the officiant himself. NO ONE denied the couple the right and freedom to marry. Indeed, the JP even referred them to another JP who WOULD officiate for them, thereby both facilitating the union and negating any alleged harm, while simply and clearly recusing himself from doing it himself on grounds of personal conscience. However troglodytical we may find the basis of his conscientious objection, that&#8217;s exactly what it was, a conscientious objection on the JP&#8217;s part, for which he recused himself from being the agent of solemnization. </p>
<p>There is NO right on the part of the couple to demand that a <i>particular</i> authorized officiant be THEIR officiant when said officiant does not want to be. (Nor IMHO do I think there should be, nor IMHO should any couple <i>want</i> an officiant that personally objects to their union for any reason.) </p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t mean the JP can&#8217;t be sued, of course. Anyone can sue anyone for anything, and given the right judge and jury, even win. Pettifoggers abound, as do the perpetually disgruntled. </p>
<p>And no, Lawyer Lisa, <i>Loving</i> is not the &#8220;real argument&#8221; here. &#8220;The state&#8221; did not deny the couple the right to marry. An officiant declined to personally solemnize the union, and that&#8217;s all. The claim that he HAD to agree to be the officiant is roughly analogous to saying that someone seeking an abortion can DEMAND their doctor of choice even if the doctor is not willing to do the procedure.</p>
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		<title>By: Mookie</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2009/10/16/the-devils-advocate-checks-in-denying-marriage-services/comment-page-1/#comment-104019</link>
		<dc:creator>Mookie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 02:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poligazette.com/?p=16630#comment-104019</guid>
		<description>So what if a white straight couple adopts a black baby? How is it justified?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what if a white straight couple adopts a black baby? How is it justified?</p>
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